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	<title>Comments for Dereleased</title>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-252</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-252</guid>
		<description>I will edit some new details into the article soon, but for now this part is important.

If you use a static salt, you&#039;re doing yourself a disservice; using a static salt is just as bad as using no salt at all.  Once they break the salt, it&#039;s just a matter of generating one new table and the database is just as compromised.  Using a salt based on other user data (username, etc) is a step in the right direction, but dangerous if that data can ever change (as it will destroy your ability to check the password).

When using a random salt, leaving it in the generated string is just fine, because it will still require the cracker to generate a new table/attack vector for each individual password in the table, which is the goal of using the salt.  You, however, will need to be able to retrieve that salt on a whim, so prepending it to the generated hash (as crypt automatically does) is a logical way of doing it.

One again, using a static salt is as bad as no salt at all.  Check out that paper from M.I.T. linked near the beginning for info on why (long story short, once someone knows your never-changing salt they are in control, and they will find out).  And, storing the generated salt right there with the password is a recognized A-OK technique.  Generating a salt yourself every time couldn&#039;t be easier:&lt;pre lang=&quot;PHP&quot;&gt;crypt($password, &#039;$2a$07$&#039; . md5(microtime()));&lt;/pre&gt;

Finally, if you wanted to store the salt string separately (or just want to be able to separate them), the hash is only the last 32 chars, e.g.&lt;pre lang=&quot;PHP&quot;&gt;$hash_without_salt = substr($hash_with_salt, -32);&lt;/pre&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will edit some new details into the article soon, but for now this part is important.</p>
<p>If you use a static salt, you&#8217;re doing yourself a disservice; using a static salt is just as bad as using no salt at all.  Once they break the salt, it&#8217;s just a matter of generating one new table and the database is just as compromised.  Using a salt based on other user data (username, etc) is a step in the right direction, but dangerous if that data can ever change (as it will destroy your ability to check the password).</p>
<p>When using a random salt, leaving it in the generated string is just fine, because it will still require the cracker to generate a new table/attack vector for each individual password in the table, which is the goal of using the salt.  You, however, will need to be able to retrieve that salt on a whim, so prepending it to the generated hash (as crypt automatically does) is a logical way of doing it.</p>
<p>One again, using a static salt is as bad as no salt at all.  Check out that paper from M.I.T. linked near the beginning for info on why (long story short, once someone knows your never-changing salt they are in control, and they will find out).  And, storing the generated salt right there with the password is a recognized A-OK technique.  Generating a salt yourself every time couldn&#8217;t be easier:</p>

<div class="wp_syntax"><div class="code"><pre class="php" style="font-family:monospace;"><span style="color: #990000;">crypt</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#40;</span><span style="color: #000088;">$password</span><span style="color: #339933;">,</span> <span style="color: #0000ff;">'$2a$07$'</span> <span style="color: #339933;">.</span> <span style="color: #990000;">md5</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#40;</span><span style="color: #990000;">microtime</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#40;</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#41;</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#41;</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#41;</span><span style="color: #339933;">;</span></pre></div></div>

<p>Finally, if you wanted to store the salt string separately (or just want to be able to separate them), the hash is only the last 32 chars, e.g.</p>

<div class="wp_syntax"><div class="code"><pre class="php" style="font-family:monospace;"><span style="color: #000088;">$hash_without_salt</span> <span style="color: #339933;">=</span> <span style="color: #990000;">substr</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#40;</span><span style="color: #000088;">$hash_with_salt</span><span style="color: #339933;">,</span> <span style="color: #339933;">-</span><span style="color: #cc66cc;">32</span><span style="color: #009900;">&#41;</span><span style="color: #339933;">;</span></pre></div></div>

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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by Confused man</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-251</guid>
		<description>gah, i misread it &quot;/&quot; and &quot;+&quot; are the alphabet characters you can use. I&#039;d add that somewhere in your article so that those of us who are confused can be helped a bit better. Sorry about all of these comments but since you can&#039;t edit any post you say without actually being approved i had no other way of editing things as i realized hwo foolish i was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gah, i misread it &#8220;/&#8221; and &#8220;+&#8221; are the alphabet characters you can use. I&#8217;d add that somewhere in your article so that those of us who are confused can be helped a bit better. Sorry about all of these comments but since you can&#8217;t edit any post you say without actually being approved i had no other way of editing things as i realized hwo foolish i was.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by Confused man</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-250</guid>
		<description>nevermind, i tried it for myself, after trying around with a static salt set by myself, and it seems to be working just fine. i&#039;m just going to have to remove said salt from the string itself or else the hacker once getting into the database will be able to get it all. I&#039;m probably just going to use some sort of explode type thing and use the &quot;.&quot; character as the point of explosion, since that&#039;s what the crypt seems that it&#039;s set to put that before the actual encrypted string. Thanks for explaining this in greater detail for me. Now i can finally use this thing. If you wish to delete the other comment so be it, i just was posting without understand how it all worked since i was planning on using a sha256 encryption, but now realizing how easy it&#039;s going to be to use(allbeit i can&#039;t use any special character for the salt even a &quot;-&quot;,&quot;+&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nevermind, i tried it for myself, after trying around with a static salt set by myself, and it seems to be working just fine. i&#8217;m just going to have to remove said salt from the string itself or else the hacker once getting into the database will be able to get it all. I&#8217;m probably just going to use some sort of explode type thing and use the &#8220;.&#8221; character as the point of explosion, since that&#8217;s what the crypt seems that it&#8217;s set to put that before the actual encrypted string. Thanks for explaining this in greater detail for me. Now i can finally use this thing. If you wish to delete the other comment so be it, i just was posting without understand how it all worked since i was planning on using a sha256 encryption, but now realizing how easy it&#8217;s going to be to use(allbeit i can&#8217;t use any special character for the salt even a &#8220;-&#8221;,&#8221;+&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by Confused man</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-249</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-249</guid>
		<description>Ok, this is one thing i don&#039;t understand. Maybe you can clarify this for me. If you&#039;re telling it to make it&#039;s own salt on the fly for the bcrypt, wouldn&#039;t this make password validation impossible?

Since each salt makes the end encryption different? Wouldn&#039;t this render this type of hashing completely and utterly pointless?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, this is one thing i don&#8217;t understand. Maybe you can clarify this for me. If you&#8217;re telling it to make it&#8217;s own salt on the fly for the bcrypt, wouldn&#8217;t this make password validation impossible?</p>
<p>Since each salt makes the end encryption different? Wouldn&#8217;t this render this type of hashing completely and utterly pointless?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-190</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s the thing, if you make your passwords take a second (or close to it, in either direction) to generate and validate, you&#039;re going to make brute-force or the generation of rainbow tables so ridiculously expensive it&#039;s just not worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the thing, if you make your passwords take a second (or close to it, in either direction) to generate and validate, you&#8217;re going to make brute-force or the generation of rainbow tables so ridiculously expensive it&#8217;s just not worth it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s talk about your password model by OldGrumpy</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2010/02/09/lets-talk-about-your-password-model/comment-page-1/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>OldGrumpy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=151#comment-188</guid>
		<description>To cut a long story short: Wasting the cracker&#039;s time is the one and only method one can resort to :) That&#039;s a long-known fact, for example have a look at WinRAR encryption method. It performs some pretty lengthy calculation for the entered password before passing the result on to AES. This costs so much computing time that breaking a WinRAR archive password by brute-force is just completely unfeasible... Beware quantum computers though :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To cut a long story short: Wasting the cracker&#8217;s time is the one and only method one can resort to :) That&#8217;s a long-known fact, for example have a look at WinRAR encryption method. It performs some pretty lengthy calculation for the entered password before passing the result on to AES. This costs so much computing time that breaking a WinRAR archive password by brute-force is just completely unfeasible&#8230; Beware quantum computers though :D</p>
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		<title>Comment on XML Is Like Violence&#8230; by Ed Willard</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2009/09/30/xml-is-like-violence/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Willard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=114#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Bravo!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Smartphones Affected By Malware &#8211; Welcome To The Club by Morose</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2009/07/31/smartphones-affected-by-malware-welcome-to-the-club/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Morose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 06:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=83#comment-16</guid>
		<description>I take a sick pleasure in the cringing and panic those in this situation.

That being said, I cannot agree with you more that anything is vulnerable if someone is determined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take a sick pleasure in the cringing and panic those in this situation.</p>
<p>That being said, I cannot agree with you more that anything is vulnerable if someone is determined.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Isn&#8217;t Google Chrome In Widespread Use Yet? by RyconPayne</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2009/07/25/why-isnt-google-chrome-in-widespread-use-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>RyconPayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=73#comment-15</guid>
		<description>I use Google chrome when I&#039;m in windows.  Firefox has updated itself to slow and unreliable.  Extensions are wonderful, and offer a lot of great functionality, but at the expense of everything else that made firefox such a good browser.  

Chrome came along and it was an interesting browser to play with at first.  As time went on, I found myself opening it more often just because I wanted something that would just work fast, when I needed it.  Now, when in Windows, I almost never use anything else.  And I find I don&#039;t miss all of my extensions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use Google chrome when I&#8217;m in windows.  Firefox has updated itself to slow and unreliable.  Extensions are wonderful, and offer a lot of great functionality, but at the expense of everything else that made firefox such a good browser.  </p>
<p>Chrome came along and it was an interesting browser to play with at first.  As time went on, I found myself opening it more often just because I wanted something that would just work fast, when I needed it.  Now, when in Windows, I almost never use anything else.  And I find I don&#8217;t miss all of my extensions.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Isn&#8217;t Google Chrome In Widespread Use Yet? by Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.dereleased.com/2009/07/25/why-isnt-google-chrome-in-widespread-use-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dereleased.com/?p=73#comment-14</guid>
		<description>I think a huge reason why it hasn&#039;t taken off is that you can&#039;t make mods for it like you can for Firefox. That is likely part of why it&#039;s so fast, but it limits the functionality you have to stock(see IE).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a huge reason why it hasn&#8217;t taken off is that you can&#8217;t make mods for it like you can for Firefox. That is likely part of why it&#8217;s so fast, but it limits the functionality you have to stock(see IE).</p>
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